To my streets appeared to be on the periphery, and for the first several days, I got the impression that this direction was predominant.
Later on, it appeared that I don't think I could get that good pattern, but that was my first impression for the first couple of days.
The next question is, was there any apparent direction of propagation?
And could you tell it was coming from one side to the other or what the system was?
Several times, you didn't say, from the left or the right or something like that.
I tried to correlate it, but in my case, I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it.
Yeah, I would think that the time periods, which we tried to report them straight by street flash by flash, was represented.
And it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period, and therefore generally random throughout the time that we were noticing.
No, I meant could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other?
Yes.
It was moving in a specific way.
Oh, a specific flash, yes.
But you could see it as a travel from one side to another.
Yes.
You really think they tried to report that way, didn't you?
That's the way it was, because it happened to be very fast, you know.
And that question kind of redundant then?
I don't believe you.
Was there some character for these flashes that had some aspect of direction?
Were they all the same, Ron Chaype, or were they have a tail on it?
Well, what I reported as a streak was simply that.
Now, maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction, leaving a tail.
But I don't, I can't say that for sure.
All I reported was a streak, and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other.
And I reported that direction, and I can't clarify it much more than that.
I mean, maybe while you're asking a question, we just tell us the lights.
I think they can see this in the dark and blue, but just right.
The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it.
I think you need to like that bit.
Wow.
Can you see anything?
Yeah, I can tell.
That's what it looked like, except it was traveling.
In other words, it started out and then definitely progressed across the field of view.
The direction of motion per individual.
Was it that right?
Yeah, except you're not traveling.
It was traveling.
I know.
You started it right in the sea.
Me too.
I never did see two simultaneously either.
Neither did I.
You have two streaks on that.
I never saw that.
At one time, you said you saw a semi-colon-shaped thing.
So what?
A semi-colon-shaped object.
This was in the first report.
I never did.
If I reported it, that's what I saw, but I don't remember it.
Did you see anything that looked like this?
All I'd say is whatever was reported was what I saw.
No, I, you know, we discussed the various shapes prior to flight.
And I concentrated pretty hard on trying to see the shapes.
And I think as I reported that, no, it was either a streak and just a rather simple streak or was a flash and rather a simple flash.
Nothing too exotic about it.
And on a more rare one would be maybe just a pin-point of light for an instant, rather than get the idea of a flash.
So it would just be a pin-point for a second, and it would be gone.
But that was more rare than the other two.
But why are you in a distributed sort of thing?
Yeah, I met, you know, like watching an explosion, you know, just a ball versus just a steady dot, yes.
Was it light?
Did you see that?
No.
Can't see it.
We're not getting light.
I don't think it's lightening.
Oh, there was something just as you turned it there.
I mean, multiple, this one.
Okay, that to me would be the pin-point that I'm describing.
The eruption or the novos we call them would be more of an explosion.
Yeah, yeah.
Are there more dots in that?
Well, you've got a very, very bright center and a diffused edge.
I would say that the impression I had was you would have an area like that indicating a blow-up,
but the center wasn't predominantly that bright.
But that's getting closer to what we would call a rod I would refer to as an ova or a flash.
That's not as bright as what I call an ova, yeah.
No, it was what I call an ova was more of a blob that seemed to start with that and kind of expand.
More diffused.
Yeah, more diffused as the time went on.
Righter than that.
Righter than that, yes.
That's what I call a flash or a star.
Here again, you've got too much contrast between the center and the diffused area there though.
Also, your time frame that your flash you got is too low.
It was faster than that.
Am I right in from what you just said that when you said flash, you really meant a star or not a,
would not what, did you just describe it?
I think I almost didn't use flash and star interchangeable.
That's on true view.
No, when I flash, no, but to me, we're essentially the same thing.
The only distinction I make is the pinpoint versus an explosion.
Okay, I think what Stu was calling a pinpoint was about what I call a star or flash.
And an ova, to me, was a much bigger, brighter thing.
Okay, again, a couple of quick ones.
First of all, the cabin light.
Exactly.
Was it completely dark or was there some instrument lights still on?
Absolutely dark.
Absolutely dark.
Okay.
Well, yeah, there's, you talk about the time period that we ran this quantitative report, right?
Right.
Completely dark.
Okay.
And did you have your eyes closed?
Most of the time, were they open in the dark cabin?
Mine was closed.
Yeah, that I'd go.
Even though we had the winter shades on, when we'd roll around to the sun,
we didn't have to do windows, there was a piece of light seepage around.
We were aware of that at the time.
So during that time, when we at least had closed my eyes closed, open otherwise.
And of course, we closed our eyes when we had put this flashlight on.
But generally speaking, eyes were open.
No, mine was almost closed all the time.
I was floating down the corner of the LED, but I kept my eyes closed because I didn't know when my roll into the sun.
And I didn't want to pick up any light at all.
Okay, the next question on the flashlight was, when you shine it in your eyes,
what was the approximate duration in each eye about how many seconds?
Well, I just kind of moved it across for five seconds or so.
Five or six seconds. It hurt. It was hurt, right?
And the next question on still your orientation in the LED?
You said you were looking toward plus X.
Is we across?
I was generally, you know, how you have the three couches and plus X is,
I was oriented this way with my head looking face up down in this corner.
So your head was in the same direction as it would be if you were on the cap.
Yes, that's it.
And the next question is, in almost every case, you did report that it was in one eye.
The other is one instance where you had a bow die.
And my question is, maybe someone had redunded it,
but you absolutely certain that you could distinguish that it was one eye as opposed to...
I felt I was getting more on the left than the right in some reason,
but in fact, in fact, you were all heavily biased towards the right on the one on your reports.
Really? Very heavily. Like, we were both on one.
I was sworn that I was biased to the left.
You had 12 right and 6 left,
and Allen, you had 10 right, 4 left,
and on the ones on your reports,
you had 6 right and 2 left,
and the rest were in no reports or both eye.
It was all very heavily been biased to the right eye.
That first question.
Well, I'm talking about that.
It seems to me that I would get a flash or a streak or whatever the phenomenon or whatever the shape was.
Simultaneous with somebody else reporting.
That's exactly the next question.
That was three from listening to tapes, three events,
and it occurred in cases where different pairs revolved.
Which were coincidences where,
and I think in one case,
Ed, you said flash,
and then Allen, you said,
simultaneous with him.
I have flash in the whole right eye.
Now, my question would be when it was simultaneous,
was it after he began speaking or was it, in fact,
was his words good enough for you to have been marked on your flash?
Well, with certainty,
within a fraction of a second,
I think it was simultaneous.
Yeah, a couple of times it happened to me,
because his mark or whoever the mark it was was good enough.
Same here.
And then the next question is earlier before the session,
then when you were describing some of the subjective observations,
you mentioned the halo as that you'd seen.
That you'd see a flash followed by an absolute take his halo off,
put it away.
It's going to be, I'm sorry.
Well, okay.
How did you know?
The after effects.
Were they present most of the time,
did you see, did you have,
a cognizance of,
of spiking in a sort of glow afterwards?
Only on what I call the Nova or the Supernova.
Supernova.
I'm sure it's for you to do.
I really know the halo effect myself.
I guess I'm not sure what we're calling the halo effect.
I'm a diffused brightness.
More like an after glow after.
Did I call any of those?
I sure don't remember it.
No, I don't think I saw any of those.
Okay.
The other question we had was,
do you want to make any observations in Linda Ormond?
I know there were no formal theories,
but you know, I thought about that on the way back.
And I was so tired that night that I really don't remember
seeing any flashes,
but I didn't look for any either.
So I guess the question would be,
I consciously did not see any,
but I sure,
I wouldn't take that as a data point.
Okay.
And then the final,
after our formal session was on Bob,
you didn't have a sleep period later on.
Do you remember whether you saw any during that sleep period closer in?
It's significant,
whether you're inside the magnetic pole.
Yeah.
I don't consciously recall,
but I don't really recall that there was any night,
except on a lunar surface,
that I didn't,
at some time or at others they saw.
You definitely,
you didn't see any on the lunar surface?
I just, no,
I don't remember about the lunar surface.
Oh.
There was precious little sleep that night.
It was beautiful.
Okay, well, I saw all the questions I had.
We had to tell us the light for a minute.
I have one of these questions.
Did you get the impression that light flashes
could have been within the cabin
are definitely within your eye?
Definitely within the eye.
Yeah.
I want to get some idea about orientation
and length of the streets.
Did you ever see anything in the sunlight?
No.
No, I never did.
You used the terminology of
six o'clock or hours of the clock.
Does that mean to you when you say six o'clock
to the center about how long the street is that?
That's a hard question to answer.
If you were visualizing something about it,
so,
oh, about the arms length away from you.
How long would you say your longest street was that long?
Did you see my fingers?
I'll show it a little.
Let me describe it a different way.
It appeared to me that the things,
I would say, were three or four inches away
from my plane,
whatever that means,
and were a couple inches long.
Tell us what it meant to you.
Tell us what it meant to you.
It's made for inches in front of you.
It looked like this.
Too long for me.
Do you see that line up above?
What if above looks better?
Probably fairly close.
Yeah, it's as close as the longest one.
See, I'm not sure what our scale is here.
I'd rather say that if I consider
whatever it may be,
but the field of view of saying my right eye
and take a radius of that,
that I'd put a streak
of about a half the radius
would be the average street.
Half were a little longer.
Do you think there's a way that you can
associate this length of the streak
to what you said
with a longer chart?
Well, depending on how big a circle
I want to draw from my field of view.
I saw streaks that long
because with my eyes closed,
I imagine a rather big field of view here in my eye.
I'd see streaks that long.
One time you said you saw streaks
oriented in certain directions.
Do you remember that?
Yes, the way you had it,
bring it on up that way.
And point of view.
Well, I think I had them
from several directions
and I reported them
as moving from one direction
to the other at that time.
There were several of them though.
How about out any particular direction
up and down left and right?
Any preferred orientation?
And here again, I think
try to express the
the length or the arc of the flash
in terms of the peripheral field.
And if you're talking about a
horizontal peripheral field
as big somewhere in the vicinity of
150-160 degrees,
then in some cases
the light flashes would go
across as much as
50 or 60 degrees of that.
Where's the light flashes broken in the center?
Some cases they were.
Some cases I had the feeling
it was two dots.
One to be really
following the other,
giving the impression
of right to the left and top to bottom,
bottom to top.
The point is, you see that the
retina is so curved,
but if you draw a straight line,
you can't get too long,
you shouldn't be able to get too long
of a streak with that breaking the
line.
If you've been any longer than that,
it would just as
a problem.
You can't hear that.
It should not be any longer than
what I showed you.
If you just went through the
retina and one track,
but if it went through a couple of eyes,
then you would have an impression along the street.
That's why we're interested in the character.
I have one more about the cloud that you saw.
This is a new phenomenon which we had
before.
I think it occurred
I reported it a couple of times
and it appeared as I recall
to be down low
on one eye or the other
and it was just a diffuse lighting.
Any color?
Quite silver.
If you're out in the country
and looking at the rise
and there was lighting behind the cloud,
was it like that?
Except generally if you do that,
you can see a streak behind the cloud.
You can see a streak of a just a diffuse light.
Similar to that.
We have a little gizmo that will simulate
that sort of phosphine when you get
out of the current
and maybe look at it.
The last attempt to try
to get the cloud here.
Does it light some in it?
Good job.
I am.
He's still wet.
Was it anything like that?
I didn't see it.
It's a pretty dim cloud.
They have no darker depth.
They still don't see it.
I'm not seeing anything on a chip.
Okay.
Okay.
But what you're trying to describe
is just what we used to call
heat light in this.
Yeah.
This is a general diffuse light.
Yeah.
You can see the relief of the cloud.
No, not necessarily.
One final question.
We didn't voice up to your question
about whether you noticed
any other sensations
beside flashes, which was the reason
right from that was the difference.
Did you feel any tingling
or quite yourself twitching
or hear anything?
The reason bad is that
if it is an interaction back in the brain
then there are other senses
just found sensitive visual sense
and maybe you should feel something.
Didn't notice any sensation.
There are two things
to think about.
Did you notice your thomad chain
or your lips twitching?
In particular.
No.
Never look for it.
By the way,
these are suggested questions
in the fact that you say no
as significant.
You can press on with different parts
of the anatomy. You might get a yes
to do it.
Right.
You know if there is something significant
about your thums or your lips,
maybe you should warn people
to look for that.
Because I don't know
unless it's going to be so obvious
that if you admit
it's all over.
Sometimes you might think you should be
if you were comfortable.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
I think I said to read yesterday
that you really did provide
an enormously improved
metadata on this film
and that we've had in many previous months.
It was great.
Well, I would add this to that.
I think that's the way you really have to go
is to take a definite treat.
Set it aside and do it.
Because otherwise,
it's so random and
so many other things going through your mind
that the only way you gave it quantitatively.
You know,
a lot of concentrating on that length of time.
Do you feel that that was being unreasonable?
Did I actually do that?
Did you get down to sleep?
That's pretty boring thing to do.
You're sitting in a line watching.
You think we should be
in planning for doing this sort of thing
on future missions.
We shouldn't try to do it much more
than we tried to
get you to do it,
because it's just too much
and you can find a time for it during the flight
when they have,
when they're ready else to do.
I think it's a reasonable to suggest that.
I don't think I would do it
before a sleep bird
or when they're tired or they'll go to sleep on you.
Yeah, you know,
I think long line failed by the time you've,
you know, talked a little bit
brief life like we did.
And then you know
the phenomena is there because,
you know, your first sleep period
or the first time you get to spacecraft,
you're dark and close your eyes,
you're going to see flashes.
And so then that, you know,
sort of sparks your curiosity a little more
and then when they say,
let's settle down and count them
while I think you're agreeable to it.
Come on.
Are you okay?
Hey, one other comment on that,
and I'm not sure that it's related,
but I really think
that this is just a general impression
that if I would look at my
look and say the glow of the wristwatch
or something like that
and then close my eyes again,
I'd almost always see a
flash and I tried
then to correlate looking
at say a crack through the
window shade
or looking at my watch or something
and then closing my eyes
and I really came to the impression
that the two may have been correlated,
but I never really looked at it
enough to say that for sure.
But I think there was a correlation
between seeing a light
or something like this and
enclosing your eyes
and pretty soon you pick up that flash.
That's an important observation
if the action is directly
in the bipolar or the redness cells
the other segment,
you might expect it to behave
the way electrical phosphates
to rather than just
from light which takes dark connection.
What do you think about that?
I'm not sure what your point is
I was going to make the comment
that with respect to the flashes
putting the flashlight in my eyes
did not seem to destroy my dark
adaptation.
Now what that means I don't know.
Did you do it like that?
Yep. That's slow
for that fast.
Yep. For some time.
Do you see any wiped out some of the nerves?
I wiped out something.
I'm not sure that's true.
How long did you do it?
You shouldn't wipe it all out.
A couple of minutes.
A minute back and forth like this.
About five seconds for dryness.
Something like that.
Yeah.
I know where you're seeing
though is it the reason you think
you didn't knock it out out is because
you can still see the flashes.
Well, the cockpit looked different.
Remember I was doing this.
Eyes open.
I didn't like
with just what I considered
dark adaptation.
That I was more dark
adapted.
That I dark adapted much sooner
after doing that.
That I did when we started the experiment.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sure. That you would do.
Because your wipe out comes less with that
just with the flashing you do
with the tungsten lighter.
I'd like to make sure
that it was all
40 minutes whatever it was
that it was shining the light.
But I don't know whether you picked it up
on the air to ground or not.
But I had done that prior to that during one of the sleep periods.
There's just, you do not have to be darker
adapted to see these.
Yeah. I think that's a good way to
draw my insight.
That's a very generic data point.
There's almost certainly proof that it's not
another real life in your eye.
Generate your eye.
Before we saw anything, it was quite a while.
And yeah, but I wipe the light across my eyes
within 30-40 seconds.
There they were again.
17 minutes.
No response.
Yeah. But when I did it with the flash light
within 30-40 seconds, they were right there again.
You said that they were
finder, they seem finder than they had on previous
previous times.
But there definitely is a threshold effect
from some sort because
you saw it twice as many during that period
as the other two did.
And I think maybe it's just
my guess was when you didn't see them,
when they just had to see them regularly.
It was just that they seem
finder than you expected.
And so I took you a while to get your attention now
to finder ones and what you're looking for.
Well, that may be the case, except
they did indeed the pair of feinter
in the beginning.
And it wasn't a matter of
looking for feinter objects.
They were brighter after a while.
And for you out?
And they didn't diminish in brightness
when I did the flash light across my eyes.
They were still just as bright 30 seconds later
as they had there before.
I used to flash light.
And that's why I'm questioning the dark adaptation bit.
Either I didn't wipe the dark adaptation out
or there is something related to dark adaptation
that influences the phenomenon.
That makes sense.
That dark time period that we did it.
And the few flashes we saw
was very surprising to me.
And we talked about this
and we commented on it at the time.
Boy, it seemed like, you know,
you'd wake up during a sleep period.
And...
The role of the boy.
Now here again, maybe I'd lose track of time.
You know, you're laying there in the dark cabin
and maybe it was longer than what I thought.
But it just seemed like the, you know,
abundance of flashes.
And I was amazed when it took 17 minutes to see a flash.
I thought, any time that you wanted to close your eyes
you were going to...
and concentrate on it, you were going to...
You were going to see these things.
That's why I suggest that you're really honest
that it's a time period of time
because it is...
that your random function is far as unconcerned
and try to do it in an non-conundated basis
as often done.
Yeah.
Plus the fact that I think that...
I had to report at different levels of activity too.
I had to feel it was maybe some little faint things
that I would sort of see
that I didn't want to talk about
because I couldn't define it as a flash.
Yeah, I had those too.
So...
I think all sorts of good idea to do this way
because you're subjective.
Impression is not necessarily right.
Like, you felt that you were...
You saw more than you left on your right,
and that wasn't true.
I didn't see any of these things.
Most people do see something
as they're going to sleep in a dark room.
They can't sleep right away.
Down here.
Ah.
I don't know.
Yeah, you got...
like blinking around, you're not on your eyes
if you're getting a real dark room occasionally.
But maybe because we've never really concentrated on looking
for this particular type of phenomenon.
And as you saw, we're different from the ones that you...
You see once in a while.
Oh, definitely a lot more frequent.
Yeah.
How about in Brightness?
About what?
Brightness.
I guess we'll have...
I'll make a note
to see if I've seen any of those,
you know, from here on.
But I certainly haven't...
since we've been back.
But here again, and Ed mentioned this,
and I agree with him,
but it's another subjective thing,
that the flashes you see when you wake up in the middle of the night
as a whole appear to be brighter
than the flashes as a whole
during that experiment
that we did during the day.
And I'm like,
I was a little reluctant
to call anything
except a very positive flash
during that time frame.
You know, I want to make really sure
that that was indeed
a mark at the time that I called it.
But those that you saw during the...
during the middle of the night
appear to be brighter
and I can say,
appear to be more of them.
But here again, you know,
you may lay there for an hour
and you think it's five...
ten minutes or something, I don't know.
Maybe you lose track of the time.
But it's a subjective thing.
It saw one blue flash
that wasn't blue.
It was a silver
blue white.
Blue diamond.
Was that the brightest that you saw?
I don't recall it. It was the brightest, no.
Mm-hmm.
Has anybody been hitting the head and seeing stars?
Yeah.
Were these anything like that?
I think I have more concentrated on the pain.
No!
When you...
when you got a bed tonight
if you, once in a dark room,
if you just knock on your eyeballs,
you should see flashes in the mud with
trying that to see what they look like.
No, we cry a lot in here.
Okay.
No, I'll say, you know,
if you can get the next cruise interested,
Phil, you know, it makes a great topic
a conversation.
And, you know, during the flag,
you've got nothing else to talk about,
you can talk about light flashes.
I want to get the cruise curiosity
to rise to a good date.
I think the pressure we put on the subject,
which is built out of such
the movie, some formal experiment
or a good thing is probably a way to go.
It makes very much sense.
Thank you.
We'll get...
We'll keep back in time for you.
You know what we're going to do with this other thing
and what we're going to do,
how things are going to time rise
for the end of the next two.
You know what the time is now
0731 on Saturday either.
Oh, at least timing.
Yeah.
We're going to spring this early, Chuck.
Somebody said that 21 days ended up
on Saturday morning, yeah.
I would have been glad to believe otherwise, Chuck.
Yeah.
In a deep briefing,
it says 0826th Friday.
Deeks, as we get out,
Friday morning.
He called yesterday.
Yeah.
He called me and I said,
how do we ever get this number here?
I said, I don't know what you guys said.
Well, the radiation people are here.
We're talking about release and all that kind of business.
Can we get a hack on when they're going to get total body pounds?